#1 17th Aug 2014 11:38:35

Lord_Chris
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Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

To make all matches of stronghold 2 fair, we have decided to come up with these multiplayer rules. Any users who continuously ignore these may be banned from taking part in further multiplayer matches.

This list may get updated at any time.

  1. No Assassins. They can't be seen by other players, and as such are a sly underhand means of winning.

  2. Thieves can be used, however, not in mass to attack an enemy lord.

  3. Siege equipment: You cannot use Fire Ballistas in excess - limit them to five or ten on the map at one time. The same goes for Trebuchets - please limit them to ten on a map.

  4. You are not allowed to place buildings around a village flagpole in an attempt to block players from taking over villages. Blocking pathways to the village is fine, but not the actual flagpole itself.

  5. No intentional, consistent use of burning carts

  6. No placing siege camps next to enemy units intentionally and for destructive purposes of those enemy units

  7. No repeated victimisation of certain players

  8. No discussion of forming teams or alliances during the game

Last edited by Lord_Chris (10th Apr 2015 20:33:21)

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#2 31st Oct 2014 23:18:11

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I have recently played a game, and I have faced some stuff which might be added to our rules. The most important one - using burning charts to make fire in some area around enemy army, thus burning them. I believe this could be unpleasant to the opponent which expects a fierce fight - they want to die from swords, not from burning charts which showed up almost from nowhere. smile

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#3 1st Nov 2014 10:07:00

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Burning carts are just a strategy that players can use, I don't really believe that there is anything unfair about them, like Assassins for example - providing they're not in mass of course.

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#4 1st Nov 2014 13:59:13

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I agree that there is nothing unfair about burning charts themselves. But my opponent was using them in large numbers against my troops - not against my buildings. For example, I would send my men to attack him, and than he would just build a siege camp relatively close to my men, and make large number of burning charts. Then he would send those on my man and burn entire area around them, even though there was nothing to be burned - only some green grass. what

This is something that none of you guys did to me in our multiplayer games.

Also, I cannot say this is much unfair, as others are able to do the same, but this is just not natural. I could demonstrate you in some multiplayer game, or I could post a screenshot. The thing is that one is able to build a siege camp, and to make up to 24 burning charts and send those on enemy troops. Perhaps that wouldn't be such a problem if one wouldn't be able to make 24 burning charts away from his castle.


There is also one more thing that this guy was doing. He was buildings three stockpiles and an armory around villages campfire, and he was putting a knight inside. This way he was securing his village, so one wouldn't be able to reach the knight easily, kill him, and take over the village.


Again - there is nothing unfair when someone uses those because this is not cheating - other can do the same as well, but in my opinion we should not be doing those things. Just like I don't like using portable shields in Stronghold Crusader because it provides too much protection - even more protection that tower with a hoarding. what


I'd also like to say that it was a good fight, and it was quite interesting. Still, I ended that game in one suicidal attack because the opponent was way stronger (his nickname is RAID, by the way), and he wasn't attacking me at all. Also, it was getting pretty late. Only I was attacking him, but he was like a cat playing with a mouse. big_smile If he wanted, he would have killed me easily inside my own castle as well.

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#5 1st Nov 2014 14:48:31

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

There is also one more thing that this guy was doing. He was buildings three stockpiles and an armory around villages campfire, and he was putting a knight inside. This way he was securing his village, so one wouldn't be able to reach the knight easily, kill him, and take over the village.

That should be added. I've seen people do that before and it's not fair at all. Blocking passages to the village by placing buildings is ok, but blocking the flag pole in the center isn't. Added to the list.

Maybe putting a limit on would be better than banning it altogether, it's a strategy of killing opponents - not really cheating, as you've mentioned. How many would you say we should limit it to?

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#6 1st Nov 2014 15:28:14

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

That should be added. I've seen people do that before and it's not fair at all. Blocking passages to the village by placing buildings is ok, but blocking the flag pole in the center isn't. Added to the list.

That's right, and that is not just any building... Those are three stockpiles which cannot be destroyed by any mean, and an armory which cannot be destroyed by melee troops.

I don't know what should be the number of burning charts, but perhaps we could leave it as it is for now, until Bradley sees this. Maybe he has a better suggestion. For now, I can say that none of you were doing the same thing as this opponent of mine, so we could leave it as it is - as long as we try to play fair, we shall not be doing this. That is my impression at least.

I still have feeling like you didn't understand what I wanted to say, so I will give an example. smile In our first Stronghold 2 multiplayer game (when we fought 1v1) you were attacking me with burning charts, but you were sending them only on my buildings which is fine. Now, if I used those charts to defend myself from your attacks, that wouldn't be right. You train about 40 knights, and I send burning charts onto them. This way I give very little resources for the charts, but you lose way much. On the other hand, if your knights are mounted, than you could escape from my charts, but I don't think that should be the case. If your knights are not mounted then they stand no chance - I will easily put them all to fire.


I could also say that this opponent was also attacking my swordsmen with catapults - swordsmen are slow, and my swordsmen army was devastated. On the other hand not using catapults would make the game boring maybe. My point is that those should not be rules perhaps - we could look at those as at our code of honor. Unless you disagree with me about this matter, of course. smile

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#7 1st Nov 2014 16:25:01

Lord Vetka
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Maybe along with some basic rules we could add in a basic code of honor, not that we need it but other players will do some extra things just to win, I don't play online very much but I have seen what people will do win:-)

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#8 2nd Nov 2014 08:56:23

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Well, I agree with Vetka, but I only don't want someone to spend his time making this code of honor, since almost any player that want's to play for fun and wants to play a fair game would obey that code anyway (not even knowing about it).
I guess it would be enough to add "no intentional using many of burning charts against army", and we could also add "no intentional catapult aiming on troops"? In that case, if someone burns an army inside a burning village or inside a burning town - that wouldn't be wrong because the attacker was trying to burn the city, and there is nothing wrong with that. Similar with catapults.
Perhaps it would be simpler to add those two among the rules, but I will let you decide that. smile

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#9 2nd Nov 2014 19:52:16

Lord Vetka
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Maybe the best way would be to have it as a code of honor, make it " We do like to play with a basic code of honor" something like that, and have a basic comment about what a code of honor is.

Maybe-" A code of honor- To play a game where you can set your enemy castle on fire but not the troops outside of the castle, you can use trebs but not on troops outside of the castle, no blocking your enemies gates or no surrounding your village estates flag with stock rooms and a knight... something along those lines might be OK.

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#10 2nd Nov 2014 21:54:28

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I guess it would be enough to add "no intentional using many of burning charts against army", and we could also add "no intentional catapult aiming on troops"?

How about no intentional, consistent use of burning carts? That would allow a one-off maybe, as I do feel it's not something we shouldn't completely stop but can be unfair at the same time. See the difference is, I'm picturing it as being you attack, and the enemy ambushes you with burning carts on the way to their castle. But if you go into the enemy castle with burning carts then that could be unfair. Which scenario exactly are you referring to?

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#11 2nd Nov 2014 22:03:10

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

There are two sub-cases here:
1. I build those carts in advance - I bring them, and set an ambush. That would be fair in my opinion;
2. I see your army marshes, I build a siege camp as close to your army as possible and instantly train 24 burning carts to send them on your troops to set them on fire. I think this would be taking advantage of the game that let us build 24 burning carts instantly in front of your troops.
3. Sending burning carts on enemy castle is fine by me, as it is realistic. We could only limit number of those carts though.

How about no intentional, consistent use of burning carts?

I like this proposal.

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#12 3rd Nov 2014 00:06:23

Nigel
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I like this, too. I think this would work well - not only for SH2 but also SHC2, where you can build a siege camp real close to enemy units.


Regarding the idea of a Code of Honour: I used to play a lot of the Total War series and and we had a Code of Honour there.

For me, the main thing of a CoH is, that players commit to not using exploits of the game weaknesses and are putting fun before winning.
That sounds very general, but I think if players stick to that, they will have good games most of the time.
Details of what is fair and what not are, of course, debatable and to some extend a matter of preference. But if you respect if someone says: I hate this, please don't use this. That's the essence of honourable play.

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#13 3rd Nov 2014 11:28:08

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I like this proposal.

Added to the list smile

I also think that you shouldn't build a siege camp close to enemy units so I've added that to the list.

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#14 3rd Nov 2014 21:33:50

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Great! Thanks, Chris! smile

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#15 10th Apr 2015 20:41:54

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Added:

  • No repeated victimisation of players

  • No discussion of forming teams or alliances during the game

No repeated victimisation of players on purpose

Players can attack each other, but cannot repeatedly attack the same player, unless in a formal in-game alliance, decided before the game starts. You cannot victimise one or more players on purpose in combined or individual assaults unless on a team.

No discussion of forming teams or alliances during the game

Teams or alliances must be sorted out before the game starts, and cannot be added artificially when the game starts through the chat interface. Alliances must be declared prior to starting the game so that everyone knows exactly who is against who, and players are officially on a team.

Last edited by Lord_Chris (10th Apr 2015 20:42:17)

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#16 10th Apr 2015 23:39:08

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I agree with Chris on this! After our game today we spent few more minutes about this, and I agree this way we would have more fun. So, just to add this - this is for free for all games, or for games with three or more teams. Also one can attack one specific player as long as he has a specific reason for this, just as, taking over one of the villages where lie some valuable resources, or something like that. Also, one may want to push away his opponent further from his castle... We only want to avoid situations where all players attack one, because this one is the most powerful lord in the game, or because he simply wants to put down this specific lord.

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#17 26th Nov 2015 14:44:04

buddha737
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Guys, I just want to share the rules I am playing with my friend, yours look a little uncomfortable to me. I will comment and you can discuss, feel free smile
Most of these, by the way, are actually so called code of honor, but we trust each other and its alright. I have to mention, that 98% of games we have played is 1 on 1


1. Only three assassins can be build at a time, once per 6 months.
          - Masses of assassins are possible to stop only by knights, plus they are visible only for tower ballistaes and/or really upclose. You can do actually much more with 3 assassins than you can think, especially, if you study the lord routes smile

2. Siege equipment - no limitations here except Trebuchets. NO trebuchets at all.
          - Threbuchets have a range, that nothing else has, so, if you have 10 trebuchets and a proper army guarding them, any defender can not afford to attack the trebuchets and he just has to see how his walls tumble down, without any way of whitstanding that. Instead, you can try using tunnels, which as effective (if not more) and sneaky and succesfull, if executed properly.

3. Instead of blocking or something else like that, we agree, that we are not able to take villages from each other UNTIL we need a closer territory to build a siege camp. That way we can build the economies much faster and the games are not as lenghty as they would be by getting distracted with the estate fighting all the time (in his multiplayer, my friend has a nickname of "Arabian", other players named him so, because he uses tons of horse archers)

4. We don't have limitations of carts, except on villages - no village burning aswell (when you think about it, villages in our games are the safest big_smile )

5. No need of this, not our playing style

6. Well, since its one on one... big_smile

7. Yeah, this went by itself without discussion in 1vs1vs1, yet, sometimes you just have to keep an eye, so an assassin or few thieves is a must as guests in other players lands
And now, the things that are not in this list, but we do have these rules!

8. No early attacks. We ask each other if we are ready and discuss, who is gonna be the first attacking. Sometimes my friend is so awed by my castle layout, he insist I should defend, haha. It goes viceversa aswell.

9. We can't buy weapons in the markets. All weapons must be made by our own workers or imported from the estates, but the mercenary camp, of course, is allowed, with no restrictions.
          - This makes the game much more equalised. Its somehow fake, when one of the players takes time and planning and work to make the weapons and the other one simply is hoarding gold and then just buys everything before it is needed or wrecks every single shipment of weapons by ambushing the caravans with horse archers. Therefore, only made/imported weaponry and armour smile

10. Not more than 20 knights OR not more than 80 swordsmen at a time.
         - This is somehow similar to the rule with Trebuchets. I know, that knights are the ultimate thing in every game, undoubtfully, but, this is the main reason why we refused them. We tested long enough and figured out, that it takes roughly 30 cats, 10 catapults and 30 mounted knights to beat mostly any defenses and kill the lord. Therefore, we refused knight spamming, cause the force is just too powerful. Yet, sometimes we like to mess around and just send our lords with few dozens of knights and fight till death

11. We can rebuild towers only every year (which is 12 minutes - enough, to conquer or repel) and the walls can ONLY be rebuilt by engineers. 
        - Both are for the same reason - it is super fake if I destroy my friends tower and right before my troops come in close, for him not to be able to build, he builds a new round tower with a fire balistae on it and wrecks my siege equipment. No tower rebuilding for one full year. And the walls are quite quickly rebuilt by engineers and it is really nicer than spamming walls quickly and much more realistic.

Feel free to discuss smile

Last edited by buddha737 (27th Nov 2015 00:30:27)

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#18 26th Nov 2015 22:33:00

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I always enjoy playing with people who have such codes of honor - unless they don't make sense of course. I mean, in Crusader I met players who wanted to play without catapults or trebuchets - then they put hundreds of crossbowmen on their castle walls, and you can guess - there is no way to defeat such a lord without catapults, especially if they dig moats around the walls. Now back to Stronghold 2. smile

1, 2, 3) Those sound interesting, I would find it fun to play with those rules!

4) So you don't use burning carts to attack enemy troops, you use them only to attack buildings within the castle estate? Of that's so, it sounds nice.

5) I believe this one was about building siege camps in that bad manner? One again, it is nice to meet lords who fight with honor. smile


8) Well, I see you have a good friend to play with. smile That is a good thing, though sometimes I have feeling that we don't actually have to grow so strong to start the fight. For example, why wouldn't we play with smaller castle estates, and using troops that would require less honor such as spearmen, macemen, pikemen... or some else. Swordsmen also don't require much honor, so in those games if a player makes some knights - those would be small groups of those men. I think it could be really interesting with your "no trebuchets" rule.

9) I agree with what you say about weapons, and I think that it would go well with what I said above under 8).

10) I agree with that too, and again - I think this also goes well with what I wrote under 8. smile We don't actually have to build a castle with huge towers and tick walls. It does make the siege more interesting, but it would bring more unit types into the fight - one would choose between masses of pikemen or fewer swordsmen, while when you are able to train hundreds of them - you don't have what to choose actually. smile



I would also like to add that we like to do another thing: when we hold an estate we also build an engineers guild there because it has stairs. Then we can climb some archers or crossbowmen there, and use the guild as a small turret. It does make it more interesting in my opinion. smile

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#19 27th Nov 2015 00:25:06

buddha737
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

4. Yes, you are right. My friend uses them quite more often, mostly to break sieges (which is, I guess, the thing you mentioned unfair), but I use them as a perfect distraction smile

5. Yes, and now you reminded me of another rule we have, I will add it to all the rules I wrote and edit the Trebuchet one!!

8-10. Exactly right you are smile We actually play just a kind of castle-builder sim and layout our fantasies and then just adore each others castles and tell each other about some significant or interesting points (we talk on skype all the time). For example, I always have patrolling pikemen or swordsmen inside the castle and on the entrances of gates to look as authentic as possible. A pikeman is guarding a feasting lord, a pair of pikemen are guarding the chambers of Lords lady, the travelling fair is supervised by a pair of guards, if I have free time, I even sometimes put few spearmen near baracks and put a pikeman near them as a drill sergeant, haha. We have lots of ideas, I have maps with neutral taverns near the main crossroads, abandoned towers, secret passages and sneaky forest paths... I use all the advantages found in the internet and my own creativity, even Churches with graveyards, witch swamps, sacred altars with monks praying and so on, haha.

Getting back to the main point (sorry for being off-topic), yes, the fights are exactly as you mentioned. It has to be very well tactisised. I can tell you our last battle, few days ago, if you want, to get a proper understanding of how it goes, though, this was quite unusual for us, but with all the rules smile

Last edited by buddha737 (27th Nov 2015 00:30:58)

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#20 27th Nov 2015 14:38:49

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

I like the rule regarding towers and walls. It would work with in any Stronghold game actually, but of course, then we also need to limit number of catapults. In Stronghold 2 that is not an issue, but in Crusader 1 (which is not our topic actually) it would be quite a problem if one manages to build 50 catapults and hit castle walls. I agree with you, and that is even something I was mentioning on Firefly's forum or Crusader 2 forum - adding this limit and limiting catapults would add it some realism, though it shouldn't be done without thinking about all the details. I also find it bad that someone is able to build an entire wall in front of your men, or unable to do any changes if your men are close. Engineers are the best solution there - it is more fair system, and it also sets the player free from having to repair the wall (which would be a pain in Stronghold 2 without that flat view we have in Stronghold 1 or Crusader 1).

It is nice to find people who like to enjoy their castles, and not just spam everything. smile Though I should stay quite here regarding that - I tend to build quite strong and effective castle in Crusader with relatively large population (around 150, which is not as large as those so called "pro" players do, but they still don't have larger working population).

Your maps sound interesting. I haven't checked yet - have you uploaded any of those maps here or at Stronghold Heaven?


Maybe we could play few games like that some day - with smaller castles and low resources in castle estates, and with lots of stuff to distract such as outlaw camps, animals, etc...

Btw, could that be possible to put a neutral castle in the middle of us with some neutral soldiers (archers, crossbowmen, knights, swordsmen...) that could serve as something which could make us no rush period? The fights could only begin when one player or more of them defeat those men there?

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#21 27th Nov 2015 18:41:29

buddha737
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Yes, spamming catapults is for sure the one way to victory, yet, it is not that interesting, but it is the easiest, I only use that when I'm desperate, though, I never go above 20 smile

Ha, my maps  actually have everything you mentioned - neutral villages with their own lifes, camps of outlaws hidden in the forests and ambushing caravans, different animals with caves they live in and so on. The problem is, most of (99%) of these maps are actually downloaded from Stronghold Heaven and then I edit them. Let me explain why, before blaming me: landscaping is reaaaaally tiring for me, therefore, it is too hard for me to to create a map from a scrap. So I grab the most basic map and then I make it alive. Why I don't upload them? I don't want to get any credits for maps that I have not created. But me and my friend enjoy them, because I add secret passages, more eye candy (like caves and neutral towers or forester lookout points, neutral inns and neutral farm fields), outlaws and villages. Some times I actually DO change the landscape, but yet again, I don't want to get any credits for the maps I have not created smile

Putting neutral castles - yes. You can put anything neutral from building menu and even equip tiny estates with tower ballistaes or gates. But neutral troops - sadly, but no. As I am always playing with my friend, in the edits of maps I simply add our troops in the editor to guard some passages and make the environment more lively (for example a berserker or two near the woodcutters camp or a band of engineers near a siege tunnel, which is actually a mine or a light cavalry near the inn, taking care of his horse or some monks praying near a holy site). I really enjoy making the map alive and sneaky, but not making the landscapes.

BUT I am creating right at this exact moment my first stronghold map, haha, its for me and my friend, a siege map, because we got tired of building from scrap and want some battles, therefore, I am creating a kingsmaker map, but with all the presset troops and no space for him to build, so, its just a siege smile

And I would LOVE to play with anybody of you, but I have to stress out, that my stronghold multiplayer (for some reason everybody in Lithuania has this issue) most of the times won't load maps of other people, and I can not press "Ready". I was succesfull to join only polish, german and lithuanian guys

Last edited by buddha737 (28th Nov 2015 17:47:40)

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#22 28th Nov 2015 09:28:18

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Well, if I got it right, what you didn't make there is landscape, but you adopted those maps for your games. Maybe Lord_Chris could jump in, and tell us if it is all right for you to submit your maps?
I agree with you. Although making fine landscapes is fun in Stronghold 2, when you want to make a good looking map for your multiplayer game (or singleplayer), you just want it done sooner. There is a lot of work to do, when you are about to make a detailed Stronghold 2 map - at least compared to Crusader 1 or Stronghold 1 maps. I also need to underline that this applies for maps that were made by myself and that I consider fine - when it comes to maps made by Strife for example, well, those are made with lots of patience and care, and lot more skill than I have. smile

I am sad to hear that neutral troops are not possible to be made, but still, there are things we can do regarding that. I have come to an idea - to have a four player map with a large deserted castle in the center which was later taken over by the outlaws... This castle would be having stone walls, and lots of (but not too much for army of archers and armored units) outlaws which wouldn't be removed easily, so rushing wouldn't be possible. What other things about this? I could also make five deserted castles around - the large one in the middle, and four smaller ones so players could have more routes to attack each other. smile

If you want to try, we can see if I can join your game, or if you can join my game - tell me when it suits you. We can do it in few minutes, and then return to our usual duties. smile

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#23 28th Nov 2015 09:37:22

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

As long as a single line is added to the description stating you used an existing landscape, there are no problems in submitting any of your maps. We'd love to be able to show them off in our download section.

Scripting to me is more important than the landscape - and it's scripting that people tend to struggle with. So by uploading some of these maps, you may well be showing other people tips about scripting that you never thought about. smile

It's up to you, but I wouldn't let that put you off uploading them.

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#24 28th Nov 2015 09:48:33

EaglePrince
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

As long as a single line is added to the description stating you used an existing landscape, there are no problems in submitting any of your maps. We'd love to be able to show them off in our download section.

I am glad to hear that. smile So, buddha, if you have lots of those edited maps, you can submit more of them at once, though it would be preferable to have each map in a single submission. I just understand that it would take time for you to submit each of the maps separately. Just mention that the landscapes are taken from other maps.

Regarding landscapes, I don't think that they are less important. Some of us are more skilled when it comes to making a good looking landscapes, some of us have better imagination, and make better designs, etc... Plus, if I got that right, buddha wasn't scripting most of them, but still, he did add some interesting stuff into them. smile

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#25 28th Nov 2015 09:55:35

Lord_Chris
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Re: Stronghold 2 Multiplayer Rules

Each map should really be submitted separately. This would then mean that firstly, we have more variety of files for users to choose form, but secondly, when downloading it is faster for the end user.

If several maps are combined and they only want one, depending on their connection it could take a good while to download. I understand that this is harder to submit them, but it's easier both for the person approving them (they'll get done faster) and for the users looking for them as they'll show up individually in search results .etc.

Saying that though - just use your best judgement when you come to upload them and you'll be fine. smile

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